Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Do we still need an Opax group?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Do we still need an Opax group?

    Why is there a Race and a Pax group anyway? All these different categories are confusing with no visible discussion or advice as to how to choose between them. The competition is all divided up. You still have a touring group but you no longer have an SP group or an SM/SSM/M group. I used to know what category to race in. Now it seems pretty lame. The only group that seems to make any sense is the PAX group but you count only 3 runs and the rest is what? Practice?.
    Ron,
    2007 ESP Audi RS4

  • #2
    Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

    Originally posted by raceturtle View Post
    Why is there a Race and a Pax group anyway? All these different categories are confusing with no visible discussion or advice as to how to choose between them. The competition is all divided up. You still have a touring group but you no longer have an SP group or an SM/SSM/M group. I used to know what category to race in. Now it seems pretty lame. The only group that seems to make any sense is the PAX group but you count only 3 runs and the rest is what? Practice?.
    Hey Ron,

    Here is my basic understanding - others feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong.

    The Race group combines every class competing on race tires - SM, SSM, all the SP classes, Modifieds, and so on - into one larger group and we compete against one another with our respective PAX indexes much like all the ST classes do in Touring. Essentially, it allows me to compete against you (except for this passed weekend when you were in OPAX) and everyone else on race tires rather than one or two other SM cars.

    It sounds like you want to register in the Race Group and ESP.

    Cheers,
    Peter

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

      The original reason was basically to dump all the fast people in OPAX. It served several purposes:

      1) To simulate a "real" event where only 3 runs count
      2) To allow competition in the other groups so that the same people didn't get the trophies every year
      3) To encourage senior/fast drivers in OPAX to help others once the 3 competition runs were complete.

      However, the plan fell off the rails when the street tire pax was removed. Now most of us on race tires (including the super fast people) run in the race group because there is no chance we can win in the rain against street or street touring. For some of us there is Mazda money at stake - for all of us there is bragging rights.
      Brian Hemming | 1990 Mazda Miata - CSP | 1993 Mazda MX6 - HS

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

        Seems like it is time to re-visit the plan.
        Ron,
        2007 ESP Audi RS4

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

          I'm just a Noobie but the system seems good to me. All of the group sizes are a good size with OpenPAX appearing to be the smallest. The logic used to create the groups as described above still applies I think.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

            Originally posted by 510 View Post
            The original reason was basically to dump all the fast people in OPAX. It served several purposes:

            1) To simulate a "real" event where only 3 runs count
            2) To allow competition in the other groups so that the same people didn't get the trophies every year
            3) To encourage senior/fast drivers in OPAX to help others once the 3 competition runs were complete.

            However, the plan fell off the rails when the street tire pax was removed. Now most of us on race tires (including the super fast people) run in the race group because there is no chance we can win in the rain against street or street touring. For some of us there is Mazda money at stake - for all of us there is bragging rights.
            So why is it any more complicated than running a racing rain tire or a good street tire rather than slicks in the case of rain? Perhaps I don't understand.

            Originally posted by raceturtle View Post
            Seems like it is time to re-visit the plan.
            But if you don't like the fact that OPAX only counts your first three runs why would you not just compete in the Race group rather than lobby a change for OPAX? Again, apologies if I'm missing something.

            Peter

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

              Originally posted by Il Toro Vecchio View Post
              So why is it any more complicated than running a racing rain tire or a good street tire rather than slicks in the case of rain? Perhaps I don't understand.
              It's all relative to what puts the car in a class above Street or Street Touring. In most cases that's more power, wider tires/wheels, lighter, and aero. For the most part the value of all those things are diminished the wetter it gets. Hoosier Wets are better than street tires, but not by the same margin as Hoosier A7 versus a street tire.

              An SM BMW can have massive Hoosiers and massive horsepower. Once it rains you're usable power and relative traction isn't going to be all that much different than an STU M3, but the SM car has to run over 1.5 seconds faster on the average course. Probably not going to happen.

              The reality of racing in the rain is that a softer pax gains a relative advantage. Take the two extremes and compare HS to AM. An H-Street Mini or Fiesta will not be all that much slower in the rain - the Vancouver Special is virtually helpless.

              It's not fun getting raw timed by STS Hondas. Most of the fast guys on race tires would rather just stay in the Race group where weather does not give anyone a significant benefit.
              Brian Hemming | 1990 Mazda Miata - CSP | 1993 Mazda MX6 - HS

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                Originally posted by Il Toro Vecchio View Post
                But if you don't like the fact that OPAX only counts your first three runs why would you not just compete in the Race group rather than lobby a change for OPAX? Again, apologies if I'm missing something.

                Peter
                If I had known that they only took the first 3 runs, I would have chosen the race group. It is really too bad we did not have this discussion at the beginning of the year before I we signed up for the first race. Previously I choose ESP and that was it. This year I looked at the choices and figured I want to compare myself to the fast drivers and I thought they would be in Pax so I choose that. Then I get to the race and I find out that they have chosen a different category. I was only able to make 5 races this year so felt unable to change after I made the commitment to my first race.

                Personally, I think there should just be PAX and then everyone is comparable to everyone because as far as i am concerned that is all that really matters. The year end standings could have a 3 run trophy and a full run trophy but everyone would still be comparable to everyone. You can still give trophies out for the different categories. But the way we are doing it now you are dividing up the good competition between RACE and PAX and then it seems kind of senseless to give out trophies. It is too bad if the Hoosier drivers do not want to compete against street tires. The AWD guys compete all year mostly in the dry with a 150 - 200 pound weight handicap that only really helps when it is wet. With the current mentality there should be an AWD category. The high power drivers may not do as well in the wet but at the end of the season it makes the overall standings a little more interesting if there was a wet race or two.
                Ron,
                2007 ESP Audi RS4

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                  i also agree that opax has lost some of its value since the ST pax was removed and its lost its original intent.

                  my proposals for next year

                  5 main groups
                  ladies
                  novice
                  race
                  street
                  street touring

                  everyone is automatically entered into a 3 run opax group. so you have the chance to win opax and your group trophy. it'll generate competition to get it done in 3, the top drivers can still have a place to compete with each other and not sacrifice contingency money and still try to be faster in the afternoon within your own groups. heck you could do a novice opax if you wanted as well.

                  i also think we should try something different and have a best 1st lap trophy, and have everyone scored based upon their first lap. it would put more emphasis on trying to get a good walk in, get there early and setup. why not try something fun and different, we're not bound by scca national event rules. it would definitely be mixed up based on run order, weather , etc.

                  i think training people to get it done 3 , including the first lap trophy, will be beneficial to developing emphasis on course walks, prep, and driving under pressure which i feel less of when i know i have 6-10 laps available. I know the first couple times to packwood for me i wasn't ready and i crumbled under the pressure.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                    Originally posted by gtirnick View Post

                    everyone is automatically entered into a 3 run opax group. so you have the chance to win opax and your group trophy. it'll generate competition to get it done in 3, the top drivers can still have a place to compete with each other and not sacrifice contingency money and still try to be faster in the afternoon within your own groups.
                    I think this is a great suggestion!

                    And to build on the idea of being a part of one group but still competing for OPAX, Novices could be a part of multiple groups. So a Novice would be scored among other Novices and in the Stock/Touring/Race group his car would qualify under otherwise. There really wasn't anyone in Novice this year that would have challenged the leaders in the other categories.... but it certainly would have been interesting if they did... and they might as well be given the chance.

                    Just my 2 cents.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                      Great idea on paper Nick...

                      Issue is you have to expect SAME conditions for 2-3 heats in the morning, which we all know does NOT work out here. Morning run groups get the coldest conditions, dirtiest course and many in the 2nd and 3rd heats often get "ride-alongs" to increase their course-familiarity. (not even gonna open up a can of worms about day before course setup testing)

                      That's why single group such as Opax caters to the most serious racers who need to "gauge" their performance amongst their regular "peers".


                      While it all sounds great...... we all know the "what ifs, and "it was like his" that goes through your heads after an event is over that can be greatly affected by weather and course conditions.

                      PAX is a tool that we ALL use.... - HOWEVER you have to remember it's data-derived. numbers-based calculations - that are extrapolated from cross US BASED RESULTS. (ie: read - it does not fairly represent our one and ONLY race venue Pitt Meadows because of it's low grip HP penalizing asphalt, cold/wet weather conditions, street tire favoring course designs, low noise limit - again hp penalizing. )

                      ALSO remember pax numbers are based on the PREVIOUS year's data, which involves the previous years TIRES..... - which will GREATLY skew the reality. (200 TW tires this year are retardedly faster than previous 140TW - , yet A7's are not that much gripper than A6's.....



                      TOMAYTOE...... TO MAH TO

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                        Originally posted by raceturtle View Post
                        If I had known that they only took the first 3 runs, I would have chosen the race group.
                        Please don't take this the wrong way, but I haven't autoX'd since 2013 when I still had my ITR but even back then, OPAX was based on your first 3 runs of the day and the rest were all "practice" runs.

                        But I see 510's point as there was a lot less contingency $$$ back in 2013 so it does change everything and maybe there needs to be a re-visit of things this off season.
                        08 Nike Shox H/S???

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                          Originally posted by PDM View Post
                          (not even gonna open up a can of worms about day before course setup testing)
                          Somebody should open that can of worms - I can't be the only one that's annoyed by it. Pretty embarrassing when word got around at BC Champs that several people had taken several runs the night before. I wasn't there so I can't be sure what really happened, but it doesn't look good for a big event. Even at the local events there is Mazda and Scion contingency money as well as the prizes for winning the season. We might not be racing for a paycheque, but still.......
                          Brian Hemming | 1990 Mazda Miata - CSP | 1993 Mazda MX6 - HS

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                            Originally posted by 510
                            Somebody should open that can of worms - I can't be the only one that's annoyed by it. Pretty embarrassing when word got around at BC Champs that several people had taken several runs the night before. I wasn't there so I can't be sure what really happened, but it doesn't look good for a big event. Even at the local events there is Mazda and Scion contingency money as well as the prizes for winning the season. We might not be racing for a paycheque, but still.......
                            Although I am not involved in any pursuit regarding year end championships,
                            I certainly was during our "hey day" years within the Corvette clubs in Western Canada.

                            We had a rule that NO competitor could have any more "runs" than ALL other competitors
                            for ANY event. This also includes "ride alongs".

                            Considering that the number of runs considered was 3 for any event,
                            this rule makes perfect sense to "level" the playing field,
                            with no-one gaining any sort of advantage.
                            Gary and Pat Watson
                            2016 Long Beach Red Metallic Corvette Z06 Coupe

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                              While the discussion thus far has been fairly positive, this really needs to be brought up at a members meeting. There are many valid concerns here that need to be resolved and I suggest that the club hold a members meeting aside from the AGM for that very purpose. I would love to see some positive changes from both old and new members over the off season.

                              When is the next one planned? Possible to set up Skype/Facetime/Whatever for those interested and unable to make the commute? There are some great ideas and opinions from our members out of town I would like to see captured.

                              *Mods, please cut relevant comments and create a new thread*
                              Avril Morrison
                              2014 VCMC Treasurer
                              2013 Canadian Autoslalom Championship Event Chair
                              2013 VCMC Competition Director
                              2012 SCCA CML National Champion

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X