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  • #46
    Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

    Originally posted by jack112286 View Post
    Been eating enough popcorns, thought I should chime in.

    The way we attracted driver's to the opax group was through prize. And when you are a top level driver, you love prizes.
    Back then, Opax winners wins tires and a whole bunch of other prizes. whereas other group only get a trophy. Mind you, when I was a novice, winning a trophy was very great. Bring the prizes back to Opax only, and all the top guys will be back, the other guys gets to compete once again with people with similar experience/prep level.

    Now years later, we have contingency and everything changes. Perhaps VCMC should relocate the prize to make OPax great again.

    At the end of the day, we need to separate mid level from top level driver, this encourages encourages competition IMO. And I think the best way to do this is through prize/money distribution


    Jack Yeung
    I completely agree but, like I said earlier, we still don't know what the prize/money distribution is. If Opax is supposed to be the best of the best, I hope the prizes reflect that. My instincts tell me that is not the case, as currently there are only 5 drivers that have completed or could complete 5 races in Opax.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

      Originally posted by gtirnick View Post
      Other than for three run events I do not see what the big deal is. If you haven't figured it out in six runs it wouldn't have mattered anyways

      I've done setup and course design at pm
      The cars don't go very quickly simply bc they cannot make noise after 430
      It has zero impact upon next day performance

      Besides an official protest should have been placed day of if it was an issue. It's past n gone.

      Fix it moving forwards
      Ok, so you are saying the rumour is true and the course is being driven and by more than one car/driver in their own car.?

      We can't ride a bike or scooter when we walk the course so I would say driving at any speed would give you a perspective the rest of the competitors can not benefit from.
      There should be one person in a car, that is not the car they will compete in, testing the track for flow and safety.
      Ideally that person should not even be racing.
      Any more then than that and the rules are being broken.

      As far as "protest" goes, we are in the midst of a season with championship points in question so I would say the timing is ideal. Also I did not know there was a statute of limitation for protests.

      Consider this my protest.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

        Originally posted by See23 View Post
        Consider this my protest.
        Please refer to the club Supplemental Regulations for proper protest procedure.
        VCMC Events Schedule - VCMC Facebook page

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

          Originally posted by See23 View Post
          Ok, so you are saying the rumour is true and the course is being driven and by more than one car/driver in their own car.?

          We can't ride a bike or scooter when we walk the course so I would say driving at any speed would give you a perspective the rest of the competitors can not benefit from.
          There should be one person in a car, that is not the car they will compete in, testing the track for flow and safety.
          Ideally that person should not even be racing.
          Any more then than that and the rules are being broken.

          As far as "protest" goes, we are in the midst of a season with championship points in question so I would say the timing is ideal. Also I did not know there was a statute of limitation for protests.

          Consider this my protest.
          where in my post did i say it was true? its clearly a case of believing, seeing, reading, what you want.
          i had no part in setup nor was i there during setup. i only helped with reversing the course midday.


          the absurdity in some of these posts is ridiculous.

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

            Hello See23 (and anyone else who thinks the course setup "test runs" is in anyway beneficial to the test driver's competition runs the following day),

            I have previously refrained from my urge to reply to your post #43. However, seeing your subsequent post in post #47, I must say I can't resist that urge any longer.

            If anyone honestly think the partial or full test runs during course setup brings any sort of benefit to your timed runs the following day, I earnestly invite you to come the day before an event and help us with course setup. Then you can see (and experience!) for yourself what the course testing procedure is like.

            As you may recall from what others have already mentioned, the course testing runs are generally conducted in the following manner:

            - at 6/10 speeds
            - in whatever vehicle that happens to be on site
            - usually done by someone who is more experienced to provide useful insight regarding course safety and vehicle flow
            - almost always conducted in logical sub sections of the course one section at a time

            Please remember that the course setup crew are almost always volunteering at least a solid 2+ hours of their time in whatever weather conditions mother nature throws at them so that the rest of us may enjoy our day at the event. I have not been helping with course setup very much this year (maybe only twice at most?), but in previous years, I have braved the Friday rush hour traffic for close to an hour just to get to the pad to help with setup, spent another 3+ hours clearing away the JIBC side and setting up our own course, and just barely finished when it got dark. At that point, none of the course setup folks have had supper yet (although a smart selected few have brought some snacks), and I am quite certain that getting some sort of course familiarity as an advantage over their competitors the following day is the last thing on their minds. And guess what, I am also willing to bet that very few of these course setup folks have had time to prep their car or their race day gear (personal belongings).

            At a practical level, if anyone wants to take away the competition eligibility of a course setup worker, what will happen is nobody is going to do that course setup work. And while we are at it, we might as well ban the course designer from competing as well since he would have "intimate knowledge" of the course even more than any of the course setup folks. And what happens if we adopt those measures? I'm sure we can all figure that one out.

            I understand that a lot of us take our sport very seriously. Personally, I do as well. However, I never let myself forget that at the end of the day, I am engaging in this motorsports activity because I am out here to have fun. If I let the competition aspect of the game get ahead of the fun factor, it seriously defeats the purpose of coming out to play in the first place.

            Originally posted by See23 View Post
            In regards the "rumor" of persons involved in track set up taking runs, partial or in full, with the cars they are competing in, I believe that the appropriate action for the offending parties would be to forfeit their standings in those events in fairness to those that did not have that advantage.
            I don't know what the truth is but I would guess the people involved do.
            Personally, I'd have a hard time taking pride in a win I achieved by breaking the rules.

            Not complaining or ranting... just saying.
            Originally posted by See23 View Post
            Ok, so you are saying the rumour is true and the course is being driven and by more than one car/driver in their own car.?

            We can't ride a bike or scooter when we walk the course so I would say driving at any speed would give you a perspective the rest of the competitors can not benefit from.
            There should be one person in a car, that is not the car they will compete in, testing the track for flow and safety.
            Ideally that person should not even be racing.
            Any more then than that and the rules are being broken.

            As far as "protest" goes, we are in the midst of a season with championship points in question so I would say the timing is ideal. Also I did not know there was a statute of limitation for protests.

            Consider this my protest.
            Rick Leung
            one of the old farts; used to be somewhat fast

            NC Miata (aka Nancy) - #10 STR
            DE Mazda2 - #29 STF -- the fastest 2015 STF car in the province!

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

              Thanks for the link Fab. I won't be needing it this time.

              I don't have all the facts as I was not witness to what has obviously been a concern to more than just myself.
              Also, I do not know who is involved or if it even affects me directly.
              For the record I am also a volunteer and frequently involved in course set up, design and testing so I am well aware of the potential criticism that can be faced if an advantage is perceived.

              Traum, it would be sad to think that any volunteer would be less likely to be a volunteer if the rules are applied and they are subject to consequences of braking those rules. I really don't think that's an issue.

              It is apparent that there are strong feelings on both sides of this issue and that the impressions of misconduct, intended or in ignorance, is relevant and must be addressed.

              I think the message has been heard and look forward to the next event being fair for all so our "fun" is mutual.

              I appreciate the openness of this discussion.
              Last edited by See23; September 14, 2015, 14:08. Reason: gramatical error.

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                Originally posted by traum View Post
                As you may recall from what others have already mentioned, the course testing runs are generally conducted in the following manner:

                - at 6/10 speeds
                - in whatever vehicle that happens to be on site
                - usually done by someone who is more experienced to provide useful insight regarding course safety and vehicle flow
                - almost always conducted in logical sub sections of the course one section at a time.
                - at 6/10 speeds
                That's faster then walking
                - in whatever vehicle that happens to be on site
                As long as its not the car they are competing in
                - usually done by someone who is more experienced to provide useful insight regarding course safety and vehicle flow
                Providing it is only one person who knows and follows the rules
                - almost always conducted in logical sub sections of the course one section at a time.
                Every section is important and they all add up to make a difference

                Originally posted by traum View Post
                At a practical level, if anyone wants to take away the competition eligibility of a course setup worker, what will happen is nobody is going to do that course setup work. And while we are at it, we might as well ban the course designer from competing as well since he would have "intimate knowledge" of the course even more than any of the course setup folks. And what happens if we adopt those measures? I'm sure we can all figure that one out..
                No one is asking for that. You are over dramatizing an issue with a simple answer - Follow the rules.

                Originally posted by traum View Post
                I understand that a lot of us take our sport very seriously. Personally, I do as well. However, I never let myself forget that at the end of the day, I am engaging in this motorsports activity because I am out here to have fun. If I let the competition aspect of the game get ahead of the fun factor, it seriously defeats the purpose of coming out to play in the first place.
                I've heard the "fun" argument many times before. If the "fun" of one person compromises the "fun" of another, then something is seriously wrong.
                Competition is "fun" and fair competition makes the fun satisfying, win or lose, for everyone.
                Cheating ain't fun.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                  Originally posted by See23 View Post
                  I've heard the "fun" argument many times before. If the "fun" of one person compromises the "fun" of another, then something is seriously wrong.
                  Competition is "fun" and fair competition makes the fun satisfying, win or lose, for everyone.
                  Cheating ain't fun.
                  Dear sir / madam,

                  As my reply to you (and anyone else who thinks the course testing gives them any sort of "advantage" on race day), I am simply going to re-iterate what I have said in my previous reply -- I earnestly ask you to come out and help us with course set up. If you are convinced that the "advantage" exist, you are welcomed to be the test driver and bask in that competitive advantage that you will enjoy the following day. I am sure other drivers at the event will appreciate the work you've put in to help us setup the course, and nobody will say you are cheating. (If they do, we'll get them to help us with course setup next time as well.)

                  Rick Leung
                  one of the old farts; used to be somewhat fast

                  NC Miata (aka Nancy) - #10 STR
                  DE Mazda2 - #29 STF -- the fastest 2015 STF car in the province!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                    Originally posted by traum View Post
                    Dear sir / madam,

                    As my reply to you (and anyone else who thinks the course testing gives them any sort of "advantage" on race day), I am simply going to re-iterate what I have said in my previous reply -- I earnestly ask you to come out and help us with course set up. If you are convinced that the "advantage" exist, you are welcomed to be the test driver and bask in that competitive advantage that you will enjoy the following day. I am sure other drivers at the event will appreciate the work you've put in to help us setup the course, and nobody will say you are cheating. (If they do, we'll get them to help us with course setup next time as well.)

                    Hi Rick
                    It's Richard Matte (sir).
                    I drive the red STR Mazda MX5 with the black stripe and sometimes the #23 (when someone hasn't beat me to it at registration time)
                    I been at this for 7+ years in a Corvette, GTR, G37xs, 2013 MX5 and 2006 MX5

                    As I said, I do help with course set up which is in Kelowna and Vernon along side Brian and Matt, so I am very up to speed on what it takes to do the job in as fair and safe a manner as possible.
                    I also do my fair share in Pitt Meadows.

                    My comments are simply in response to "rumors" which, as I said, are significant enough of a concern to some fun loving competitors to risk backlash and bring it up on the forum.
                    If the issue is dealt with, by the rules, then I am sure all will be well and we can continue to have fun until the next rumor hits the airways.

                    Isn't this fun!?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                      Originally posted by See23 View Post
                      - at 6/10 speeds
                      That's faster then walking
                      - in whatever vehicle that happens to be on site
                      As long as its not the car they are competing in
                      - usually done by someone who is more experienced to provide useful insight regarding course safety and vehicle flow
                      Providing it is only one person who knows and follows the rules
                      - almost always conducted in logical sub sections of the course one section at a time.
                      Every section is important and they all add up to make a difference



                      No one is asking for that. You are over dramatizing an issue with a simple answer - Follow the rules.



                      I've heard the "fun" argument many times before. If the "fun" of one person compromises the "fun" of another, then something is seriously wrong.
                      Competition is "fun" and fair competition makes the fun satisfying, win or lose, for everyone.
                      Cheating ain't fun.


                      He's not over dramatizing, people expect perfection as long as it is not coming out of their own pocket.
                      Autoxcup events are designed to be the stepping stone between regular event and national event.
                      and we see that on the organizing level as well (lack of impound, etc).
                      So technically if you want to be anal, you can question why is there lack of impound, etc.
                      It is not perfect, but we just have to please 97% of the attendant, and I am pretty sure the volunteers will feel satisfied. In case you haven't notice, I think you belong to the 3%.

                      on a side not, Karen Babb designs/setup a lot of US National courses. I have never heard of anyone talking about protesting Karen, mind you, that is with 1,100 drivers running at the event.

                      Jack



                      ps. don't be a stir sh&t stick

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                        Originally posted by jack112286 View Post
                        He's not over dramatizing, people expect perfection as long as it is not coming out of their own pocket.
                        Autoxcup events are designed to be the stepping stone between regular event and national event.
                        and we see that on the organizing level as well (lack of impound, etc).
                        So technically if you want to be anal, you can question why is there lack of impound, etc.
                        It is not perfect, but we just have to please 97% of the attendant, and I am pretty sure the volunteers will feel satisfied. In case you haven't notice, I think you belong to the 3%.

                        on a side not, Karen Babb designs/setup a lot of US National courses. I have never heard of anyone talking about protesting Karen, mind you, that is with 1,100 drivers running at the event.

                        Jack

                        Why do you down-play the value or importance of these events?
                        I get tired of hearing statements like...

                        - It's just for fun
                        - I only do it for fun
                        - we're just volunteers
                        - they're just practice events for the Nationals
                        - why so competitive?

                        ... that devalues the experience for those of the "3%" as you called me, that believe the rules are there for a reason and not to be "anal" but to create a fair, fun and even playing field for all competitors (fun seekers). If you start picking through and ignoring rules for your own personal gain and then jump down the throat of anyone who questions you then your the guy with the stir ---- stick messing with the 97+3% (minus 1).
                        Last edited by See23; September 14, 2015, 19:52.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                          Originally posted by jack112286 View Post
                          on a side not, Karen Babb designs/setup a lot of US National courses. I have never heard of anyone talking about protesting Karen, mind you, that is with 1,100 drivers running at the event.
                          Not that I don't agree with some of the things you said, but Karen Babb does not test drive her courses at the National Level (I cannot speak for her local level courses). For those who will use this against those that do choose to "test" the course, Karen is also a National Level course designer and co-author of the "Course Designer's Manual". Not everyone is at a level that enables them to create a course design without testing. She is definitely an exception, not a rule.

                          While I know there has been abuse in the past, I cannot speak to the last year as I have not been involved. What I can say is that at a club level, we should be striving for a balance of mentoring new courses designers (which may include having to test the course due to inexperience) and keeping this fair and competitive. Unfortunately, it sounds like we have swung too far towards excessive course testing (or perceived excessiveness) and need to evaluate how we are setting up the night before.

                          When you are involved in a club and provide a service to the membership (like setting a course), you not only need to act with the best intentions, but also be perceived to act with the best intentions. This is not always easy (and certainly not fair), but is the unfortunate reality of being in the spotlight. I hope that the comments on this thread have not scared off our novices and that new people continue to volunteer to help set up and design courses. I would also like to remind some of our more senior membership that they too had to learn at one point and I'm sure have tested a few courses in their day.
                          Avril Morrison
                          2014 VCMC Treasurer
                          2013 Canadian Autoslalom Championship Event Chair
                          2013 VCMC Competition Director
                          2012 SCCA CML National Champion

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                            I feel that if someone is going to set up the course for me, I don't mind that they run it to make sure it flows and is safe. I would prefer they run in a car they don't race and at slower speeds. I am here to have fun and learn to drive better. It is more fun to run a course that is safe and flows. This is not the Olympics. Personally, I don't care if they get a slight advantage. It just makes beating them slightly more satisfying.
                            Ron,
                            2007 ESP Audi RS4

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                              Originally posted by raceturtle View Post
                              This is not the Olympics. Personally, I don't care if they get a slight advantage. It just makes beating them slightly more satisfying.
                              It's not the Olympics. They have their rules and we have ours... for a reason.

                              You say: "I don't care if they get a slight advantage" ..by breaking or bending the rules.
                              I say:

                              $12,000 dedicated autocross car (and that's just car #4, the cheap one)
                              $10,000 upgrades
                              $4,500 trailer
                              $cost + vehicle capable of towing
                              $1,200+ in tires/year
                              $100+ various club memberships
                              $25-$55 / event @ 25+ events
                              $160 gas+ Pitt event
                              8+hrs of driving
                              Hotels, food
                              Time away from my family
                              ...and on and on.

                              What do we get? A trophy, maybe some tires or contingency money. Big flippin deal!
                              Maybe you'll get a pat on the back but more likely they're sticking a target on it.

                              So... I do it for the fun but....
                              You mess with the rules? ...you mess with my time, my money, and my fun.
                              You can bet I'll have something to say!

                              (this is what happens when I have time to stew over the weekend)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: VCMC Auto-X Cup #7 - Results and Feedback

                                I will throw this out just for info...

                                ALL national level courses are Pre-Run, although they are not run by a competitor. At the local level, The benefit gained from pre-running (finding spots with bad visuals, dips or bumps) outweighs the slight benefit that may be gained from seeing a section of the course at speed.

                                NWR-SCCA and BSCC have allowances in their rules for pre-running the course. IN NWR, if the person is competing in a championship class, they can only run sections of the course. If the are not running for points, they can run the whole course.

                                Dips and bumps are a significant issue at Packwood, and they are not always obvious until driven at speed in something stiffer than a rental car.

                                My .02

                                Keith
                                Keith
                                Something blue and sparkly
                                www.chaserace.com
                                www.tightntidyracing.com

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