Announcement

**Jeff Loh** · July 8, 2002, 11:41

Late arriving to work = a cone? A DNF would be too harsh IMO.

Different colored markers would be ok in a non-championship event, but dunno what the National rulebook says about that. Maybe more pointer cones?

**Yarko** · July 8, 2002, 12:14

i found about 70% of the workers reported promptly at run group turnaround for their assignments which was great but that remaining 30% or so tended to trickle in a little late. it is important to note that we need EVERYBODY to be quick during transitions because we can't start the next group untill all the work spots are filled and ready. i don't think assessing any penalties is necessary at this point but i believe an anouncement regarding worker changovers etc during the driver meeting will help drivers realise the importance of a speedy switch to the efficiency of an event

**swiftdb1** · July 8, 2002, 12:23

National Tours this year have began implementing on-the-fly changeovers. Workers start reporting for work 5 to 10 mins before the heat ends and start making their way out to the stations and relieving the workers out there. Makes for shorter breaks between run heats.

Alex

**Terence** · July 8, 2002, 12:51

I think one way to improve workers switching time is to split cars into more run groups(NT has 5 heats). This way each group of workers only have to work maybe 30-40mins instead of 60-90mins and they don't have to rush to work right after their run. Considering we will very likely to have about 100 competitors in regional, I think this is possible. And it will be less cars taking the space in the grid area(means more area for the course).

Terence

**Terence** · July 8, 2002, 13:07

Another comment is the first loop should be a bit longer to let the previous car to finish the last part of the course(if we want to have a decent overlap between cars). I noticed there were lots of running for station 1&2 workers to pick up the cones before the next car come and run them over. This will create lots of rerun simply because there was not enough time for the workers to pick up cones and also create confusion as to which car actually hit the cone(I had a run at Sat. that added a cone penalty by the previous car. I did confirm with a few spectators that I didn't hit any cone). Chris also commented when he rode in Rich's RX7, they can see the previous car still doing slalom at the end of the course.

Terence

ps. If I didn't stop at the cone that was down by previous car, that shouldn't count as my penalty, right?

**Race Miata** · July 8, 2002, 13:52

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terence:
Chris also commented when he rode in Rich's RX7, they can see the previous car still doing slalom at the end of the course.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, for a short moment in the passenger seat, I was puzzled like... hmmm... I've never been in such situation where 2 cars are doing the same slalom at the same time...

As for a longer 1st loop, an alternative may be to do the far end 1st and then the loop.

**Race Miata** · July 8, 2002, 13:59

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Terence:
ps. If I didn't stop at the cone that was down by previous car, that shouldn't count as my penalty, right?<hr></blockquote>

Sometimes you think, well! it doesn't hurt my time much by going around the down cone anyways so you just forgo your re-run time for everybody else's advantage but then it kicks you at the back. I know how you feel.

**dnf** · July 8, 2002, 14:41

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Race Miata:
Yeah, for a short moment in the passenger seat, I was puzzled like... hmmm... I've never been in such situation where 2 cars are doing the same slalom at the same time... <hr></blockquote>

I'll second that.. sure Rich is fast, but my experience was with the Phantom!

I was working at station 1 on day 1 and Marc had tipped over the 2nd last cone on the final slalom, and I ran to pick it up as fast as I could, by the time I laid it back, Gary was already well into doing the slalom stretch and I was starring face to face at the Phantom coming straight towards me travelling at warp speed. Gave me a good scare.

Les

**MX-5** · July 8, 2002, 20:28

Regarding course design:

Just go down to the states, Bermenton, Everett (the closest ones) and you will see what a Real course should look like.

They don't need to use a million cones to set up for a course.
Their courses are faster but not dangerous at all.

Many of the newbie course designers (especially the UBC events) does not even understand what a technical course is like. They would think a course is technical when the corners are less than 50 degrees, and they like to cramp or squeeze your car into a narrow gate. One of the worst thing is the cones are set up in way that there is one narrow path. It's like they already set up the line for you. You don't even need to think which line should you choose, you just need to drive pass the cones. How fun!!

Besides Joe and Gary, Canadian drivers are not competitive at all when they enter a SCCA National tour or SCCA National Championship. One reason is the quality of courses that Canadian drivers are used to run on. They would have a tough time adjusting to the level of difficulty of the courses in the US.

Even though Boundary Bay is small, that's no execuse for a poor course design. VCMC had some good courses in the past and I don't see why VCMC and other clubs can't be produce more in the future.

Jonathan

**fc-racer** · July 8, 2002, 20:40

Jonathan, I have put you down for Course Designer for the last closed club of the year. Do you accept?

For this past weekend, I felt the courses were well designed and at least on par with what's available at Bremerton. Jonathan, I ran the entire BEAC and WWSCC regional championship series in my 944T down there a few years back so I know what's there and to be honest, they have a lot more room to play with and have a lot more options. They are also not averse to having cars go into the grass. The lot they use is part of a racetrack and the grass is even and not full of wierd concrete objects like us.

They also have no issue being there, we have to be careful not to have any incidents where we run. I think you are too harsh on the local organizers. When you design a course for Boundary Bay, you'll see that even designing courses like this weekend's are a bit scary because with the higher speeds, you increase the chances of a mishap.

I also think you give our drivers a bit of a rough time. I'll give it to you that our drivers are not all competitive at the Nationals level, but at the Tour level, I think a few can definitely take home a trophy. Give the club another five years, we'll be coming home with National titles

Remember that Joe and Gary started somewhere too.

fc-racer

**MX-5** · July 8, 2002, 22:41

I did not say anything regarding the past weekend course design was poor. In fact I enjoyed the Sat course that you created. Also, I personally told you that the course was great on Sat. So, I don't know where you got all the thoughts of me saying this past weekend had a poorly design course. You should save some of your imagination for course designing.

Do you know who's Kevin Dietz? It took him about
2-3 years to become one of the top drivers in his region. I know he got some help from his freinds but let's compare him to our fellow local competitors. Pick anyone right now who has autox in BC for 2-3 years and let them go down to the National Championship. The results will speak for itself. You are a pretty good driver in Canada, you may be competitive down at US but I don't think you can win SS at Tour/national level and you have been doing this for 6/7 years.

I'm not critizing the local drivers. All I'm saying is that if you really intend to be a good driver then you need to experience tougher courses. You can't be good in Math when all you do is just practicing 1 + 1. Reality bites, and the reality is that we are just not good enough comparing to the national level drivers.

I'm not qualified to be a course designer. I have not won any tour/nationals. I won't put on a hat that's way bigger than my head. In my opinion, to be a good course designer, you need to have experience (especially national level exp) and you should be a national calibre driver.

Jonathan

**Jeff Loh** · July 9, 2002, 03:33

"Besides Joe and Gary, Canadian drivers are not competitive at all when they enter a SCCA National tour or SCCA National Championship. One reason is the quality of courses that Canadian drivers are used to run on. They would have a tough time adjusting to the level of difficulty of the courses in the US."

.... Um, excuse me? Hands up VCMC members who've trophied at Seattle and /or Kansas. Joe, Gary, Wes, Pat, Cliff, Arnold, Rob, me, Johnny, Alex etc .... - that's just us. I'm sure there are other Canucks in the SCCA record books. Sorry, I don't agree with being not competitive. Those of us who've done events in other regions can attest to the soundness of VCMC's velocity school; it does prepare you for higher levels of competition. Sure, not all of us will win at National levels and kudos to Kevin - he is fast. But I think you'll see the same situation on both sides of the border. You just happen to live near a region (NWR) that has a high number of fast drivers. My region (Colorado) is the same, so is SFR.

As for the level of difficulty, I'd say the US courses (esp Seattle) are easier - due to the fact they're wide open and usually lined. Many US regions are running on postage stamp sized lots, they're tight and twisty unlike Bremerton. As far as the quality of Boundary Bay, it is a little dirty off line, but the concrete is sound and grip is as good as most airport courses.

I do agree with your final sentence Jonathan, to design a good course, you need exposure to more than just local courses. But as Farz says, try your hand at designing the next course - you gotta start somewhere, and no better place than locally. I'm sure there will be senior members who'd offer to assist.

**Jeff Loh** · July 9, 2002, 03:37

Maybe someone can find the link to Roger Johnson's or Karen Babb's course design basics. I think it was reprinted in last month's "Grassroots Motorsports" or the month before. Required reading for all, IMO

**Jeff Loh** · July 9, 2002, 04:49

Speaking of competitiveness... (from Team.Net)
>
> Quoting Jeff Winchell <[email protected]>:
>
> > I incorporated the Peru NT results into the latest calculations at
> >
> > http://PonyCar.Net/Solo2_National_Ch...p_Forecast.htm
> >
>
> I wouldn't bet any big money on this forecast. For sure on CM!!!
> Mark my words, that ain't even gonna be close.

I don't like to bet big money on anything (well, unless you count the money I spend on my
racing<s&gt

.

I'm not familiar with CM - no one drives it in Seattle. There's a couple of drivers across
the border that did well in Atwater (Alex Chiu and Blake Wilson). They have the benefit of
running every local event on concrete, plus the advice of their local friends, Joe Cheng
and Gary Milligan. Or are there other people at the top who you think shouldn't be
there... or someone not in the trophies who should be there." *snip*

Gee Alex and Blake, congrats on trophies at Kansas this year!

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