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March 24th Closed Club post event discussion

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  • fc-racer
    replied
    Hello all,

    I want to thank each and every one of you for your feedback. It's greatly appreciated. I'd like to repeat that this is a volunteer sport, no one is paid for doing any of this work so there will always be a few mistakes made here and there. The best thing you can do is provide suggestions and then help become a part of the solution to the problem you brought up. That would be fantastic for the club.

    The following items are going to be discussed within the ELT and we may also ask the folks that provided the suggestions for help in solving the problems (ranked in order of importance):

    1. Registration was a bit on the slow side. Printing of run cards was slow.

    2. Driver's need to know the procedure for the event's registration/tech.

    3. Run groups were not split evenly.

    4. More loaner helmets.

    5. Spectator information booth.

    The item submitted by MX-5 in regards to course design won't make it on this list because of a few key reasons. Course design is a very complex subject and to be frankly honest, VCMC and BCMA are the best in the region at putting on safe courses. I've been around for seven years and did not find this past course to consist of too many cones, in fact I really enjoyed the course, it flowed well and was easy to find.

    The order of importance in course design goes as follows:

    1. Safety
    2. Conform to rules (speed, distances, etc.)
    3. Technical challenge (open lines, looking ahead, etc.)
    4. Flow (easy to follow)
    5. Timing (has to be able to handle the number of competitors)
    6. Overlap
    7. Variety

    You will no doubt agree that Sunday's course had all of these items in abundance. I personally think Alex and his team did a great job on course design.

    I went for four rides with different drivers and also videotaped and put online four other drivers. If you watch the videos, every person took totally different lines. I believe the course was fairly open in that regard.

    For Closed Club events, we've made a decision to provide more runs rather than longer runs. More runs allows our competitors to try different lines, different car setups and different methods of driving more times than on a longer, but less runs, course.

    Saturday's course was designed with wet weather in mind, had it rained, we would have finished at 5:00 or later due to the slower runs. All of these things have to be kept in mind.

    MX-5, once again we appreciate the feedback, but there are limitations to what we can do for the sake of safety, lot requirements, lot restrictions and also taking into consideration that we want to develop our new drivers and senior drivers at the same time.

    You'll find that the regional courses will be similar to this for the year as course design is being looked at very closely at the CACC level. We want far fewer incidents this year than last year. Joe, one of the course designers you recommend we talk to is one of the main people behind the changes we're making this year in the way we build courses. We will be setting up the course once again on Saturday and I'll ask Guido to involve you in the process. Being a part of the course design really makes the reasoning behind the things we do so much clearer.

    Thanks everyone for your feedback, pay close attention to the next few events and see your suggestions in action.

    I will now close this thread so that we can work away at our action plan and we can now move focus to the March 31st event. After that event, we'll open a new thread similar to this.

    Thank you,
    Farzaan
    President,
    VCMC Motorsport Club

    Leave a comment:


  • thatVWguy
    replied
    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MX-5:
    The course was pretty good, but I have to comment a few things about course design. First of all, too many cones are used in certain places (ex: crossover) which creates confusion and it squeezes a car to run only one particular line.<hr></blockquote>

    I took a big group of novices out for a course walk and clarified the course a bit. Not very many of them DNF'd. I mentioned to them that when you're faced w/ a situation where the course may look confusing, try and pick out 'key' cones and ignore the rest. The key cones were the 'paired' cones marking the entrance to the crossovers.

    But I gotta admit that even a couple senior drivers missed a gate or two in that section where the 1st and last crossovers began. It wasn't the optimum arrangemnt of cones but since our lot size was compressed from other events, this was the result.

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Perhaps a tech session on course design would be good. That can also teach the novice course designers about the safety issues of course design.<hr></blockquote>

    This is actually on the agenda for a future Tech Session. Dunno, if it will be a VCMC hosted event or a CACC one.


    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The only downside of not using many cones is people may get DNF. That's too bad. That's the driver's problem. They did't look far enough. Go take a velocity driving school.<hr></blockquote>

    Thanks for the plug, Jonathan You're right. An autocross course should be a driving test and not be a memory test.

    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Also, the length of the course can be longer. around 45- 50 sec for the mod cars would be best. That way there will be more chance to make a mistake since you are on the course longer. Unless you are a top driver than you won't make mistakes. This would be a real measuring stick for the new drivers to compare how they stand against the experience drivers. Nowadays courses are only about 30 secs and times are pretty close.<hr></blockquote>

    Really couldn't help this one since the movie set took away a lot of the space we usually use. I agree w/ you that a longer course is more challenging and it will separate the skill levels of drivers. At CACC Championship events, you'll experience this. However, at Closed clubs we want to give people the learning experience. From the people we've spoken to, they prefered more runs on a slightly shorter course. They tolds us they learned more that way. As the season progresses, look for more challenging courses.

    -c.

    [ March 26, 2002: Message edited by: Cliffy ]</p>

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    YES, stock is a large group. Maybe that's why some of the people in SP and mod decided not to work during the afternoon session. It took a while to get enough people to work during the afternoon but it wasn't the case with the morning session. This is an issue to consider.


    The course was pretty good, but I have to comment a few things about course design. First of all, too many cones are used in certain places (ex: crossover) which creates confusion and it squeezes a car to run only one particular line. The courses set by VCMC is not as big as a problem as with other clubs. In most of the UBC events, the courses are setup in a very tight way. The whole course is like a one car length wide road that makes you the driver to drive along that road. There's no spaces for the driver to choose different line for a curve. When I enter a sweeper (the far end of Boundary bay), there would be a cone placed to limit my entry. I don't see the point of putting a cone at the entry point and forces the driver to drive through that point. What is the fun part of autocrossing when the line is already set up for you and you just need to drive on that line?

    Back in the old days, there were way less cones being used. Don and Joe were racing in the old days and I'm sure they can confirm that and I believe they can describe better of how a course should be setup. Perhaps a tech session on course design would be good. That can also teach the novice course designers about the safety issues of course design.

    The only downside of not using many cones is people may get DNF. That's too bad. That's the driver's problem. They did't look far enough. Go take a velocity driving school.

    Also, the length of the course can be longer. around 45- 50 sec for the mod cars would be best. That way there will be more chance to make a mistake since you are on the course longer. Unless you are a top driver than you won't make mistakes. This would be a real measuring stick for the new drivers to compare how they stand against the experience drivers. Nowadays courses are only about 30 secs and times are pretty close.

    In my opinion, the more challenging Autox is, the more fun it will have. The more fun people have, more people will attend. If VCMC is trying to increase the popularity of autox, then this is something to think about.

    Jonathan

    Leave a comment:


  • PDM
    replied
    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Neon Racer:


    I was wondering who that guy was. I was starter for that run group and I noticed that he was sending cars from grid - didn't recognize him as a competitor but appreciated the help. Anyone know who he was?
    <hr></blockquote>

    He's one of my guys...Randy Zmak. He's from Washington State, and will come next weekend to run/help.

    Randy's very good that way, very eager to help out with events like this.

    He sent his adopted son out on course to help work, when I asked for help.

    don

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: people cruising the fence for goodies.

    We could have a work assignment that involved policing the parking area. At public events down south such as Bellis Faire Mall they have had people in safety vests wandering the parking/pits and this visible presence helps to lessen opportunities for theft. Racers don't steal from racers but others might.


    Re: lopsided work/run groups.

    Assigning work/run groups could be done by lot at registration as this is a practice event so you don't really need to run in the same exact group as all the other cars in your class as you would at a competition event. Additionally, assigning work groups at registration would help with the change over time between run groups as everyone would know where to go. This is done at the CSCC and WWSCC events I have attended. Also, it is harder for people to shirk if there is a record of who should be where.

    Lastly, as I mentioned to Farzan, I have 4 9pin printers lying about here that I could donate to timing/registration if you want them. They all need ribbons but they were working fine when I took them out of production about 3 years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • thatVWguy
    replied
    Just wanted to say that it was really cool to see all the new people so enthusiastic about the sport. I hope you guys 'n' gals got some helpful hints from our experienced drivers. I saw a lot of awesome driving yesterday...you guys are picking things up really fast.

    As you review the results, just think where you would place if you could improve at least another two seconds. That's the typical improvement
    you'll get from Velocity.

    There are a few spots left in the Velocity Schools. April is filling up fast and the May session is about 1/2 way. If you have application forms coming my way, please get them in to reserve yourself a spot.

    Drop 'em off at the Mar. 31 event and I'll be sure to get them. After that, you'll have to resort to snail mail.

    Thanks,
    Cliff Loh
    Driver Development Director

    Leave a comment:


  • Dragonboy
    replied
    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by B2L2:


    How could someone steal your tech sticker? That's pretty serious. But if you haven't registrated yet, how could your car be teched already.

    Next time, if people see any stranger or strange action, I suggest we go ahead and check out the details with him. Like Farzaan said, we are a group of friends and we don't want to see anything bad happens in our club days.

    Overall, our first event ran very good and smooth. I was disappointed that there were not enough course workers in one of the afternoon run group, but I was impressed that one volunteer to help the grid was a spectator.
    <hr></blockquote>

    That was my mistake. Hyedie did ask me if I knew the drill and I assumed I did. I thought you had to get your car teched before you pay just incase your car fails the tech.

    Things were running slow and the registration was a long line so they teched my car and friends car anyways. They put the blue sticker on, signed it, and informed me that they just have to sign my sheet once I get registered. I came back to my car and the blue sticker was gone. I asked for another one.

    Next time I know better. Thanks for the heads up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Neon Racer
    replied
    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by B2L2:

    Overall, our first event ran very good and smooth. I was disappointed that there were not enough course workers in one of the afternoon run group, but I was impressed that one volunteer to help the grid was a spectator.
    <hr></blockquote>

    I was wondering who that guy was. I was starter for that run group and I noticed that he was sending cars from grid - didn't recognize him as a competitor but appreciated the help. Anyone know who he was?

    Leave a comment:


  • Yarko
    replied
    I'll help any way i can guys! thanks for listening!

    Leave a comment:


  • fc-racer
    replied
    To summarize the common themes so far:

    1. Registration was a bit on the slow side. Pre-printed run cards.
    2. Driver's need to know the procedure for the event's registration/tech.
    3. Run groups were not split evenly.
    4. More loaner helmets.
    5. Spectator information booth.

    Tommorow, we'll be taking these and any additional items, prioritizing them and then developing an action plan.

    Please keep in mind that this is a volunteer sport, no one is paid to be doing any of this work, not even the Executive Leadership Team. To implement the action plan to eliminate the problems identified above will require your assistance. We'll especially be calling on those that had comments as the issue will be known and dear to them.

    Thanks for your input, keep it coming, both positive and not so positive.

    Farzaan
    President,
    VCMC Motorsport Club

    Leave a comment:


  • Yarko
    replied
    yes we did have a few issues in tech that can easily be resolved in the future...drivers NEED to stay with their cars at tech..we were easy this time but in the future we will not tech without you there because we have to have your card and be able to give you instructions regarding your car if necessary -we also need you in and out quick so that we don't get a large backup of cars-. It would be great if the people running the gate could tell people not to grid for tech until they have registered..this was abit of a problem causing clogging of the tech area.

    [ March 25, 2002: Message edited by: Yarko ]</p>

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    At one of the BCMA (I think) events last year, they assigned run groups at registration time.

    i.e. first 5 drivers go to group 1, next five go to group 2, next 5 got to group 3, next five go to group 1 again, and so on...

    It would still allow small groups of people to stick together in a single group if they register together.

    -Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Cary Lam
    replied
    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>6. What about a visible, timing display like BCMA's. Is this possible ?feasable ? desired ? <hr></blockquote>

    Anything bigger than that? That one is hard to see.

    Leave a comment:


  • PDM
    replied
    Just a few notes.

    1. When entering the site....the person at the gate should instruct where registration is, and where tech is....otherwise you "stall" trying to figure out what the "order" is for that particular day. (Hey...I've been doing this for close to 20 years...and every time we seem to change things from club to club..and event to event)

    2. yes, the work numbers were not equal. There must be some kind of easier way to count off total entries with the new computer system, and just split everyone off into order. I have not liked the typical Stock, Super Stock, Street Prepared, Mod order, as this unfairly puts the Mod drivers at the expense of working for the stock drivers, which is usually the largest group.

    It seems at every event, we kind of informally count off heads....which works to a certain extent...but there is not cut and dry line saying who runs what. If friends want to...they seem to run when they feel like, and the run groups become lop sided.

    3. Workers who DON'T work. Getting better, but there still has to be a designated person (whether a competitor or hired person, or volunteer) that is in charge of workers, and has a clipboard, with list of entries, and ticks off every single person and if they work the required amount. I know this is only a club event, however, if VCMC shows the initiative and shows organization, we won't get these 5-10 minute lapses between run groups of looking for workers. I'm not saying we have to be super anal about it....but I found the smoothest moving events were ones where competitors are assigned work assignments.

    4. Loaner helmets. We should as a club pick up more. (painting them a very distinctive colour...like fluorescent green or something, so that we KNOW where they are and who's head they are on.

    5. Club booth ? This is just a wild idea...but we mention about our club to non competing specatators...but is there some way of having an area AWAY from the timing and scoring vehicle that we have a person signing up new club members along with a photocopied handout for those just curious ?(they can head to our site, and see what solo and the club is about.)

    Possibly pick up a small easy-up tent, and put this person combined with the work signup person ? This tent could also be for finished run cards, etc.... to keep the clutter away from the timing and scoring booth. (hey...if we get super trick one day, have a computer linked to the main ones...that can show the times right away etc.

    6. What about a visible, timing display like BCMA's. Is this possible ?feasable ? desired ?

    don

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  • B2L2
    replied
    <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dragonboy:
    I had fun today! Great event and excellent weather! Although, I was disappointed at the fact that somebody stole my tech sticker while I was waiting in line to register.

    Also, During my break I saw a biker in a harley scoping out the each drivers' equipment left behind near the fence. So make sure you keep your stuff away from the fence if you set up a pit stop next to it.

    Either than that, can't wait till next weekend!
    <hr></blockquote>

    How could someone steal your tech sticker? That's pretty serious. But if you haven't registrated yet, how could your car be teched already.

    Next time, if people see any stranger or strange action, I suggest we go ahead and check out the details with him. Like Farzaan said, we are a group of friends and we don't want to see anything bad happens in our club days.

    Overall, our first event ran very good and smooth. I was disappointed that there were not enough course workers in one of the afternoon run group, but I was impressed that one volunteer to help the grid was a spectator.

    Leave a comment:

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